yxoque said: I'll never say that the Less Wrong community can't come off as weird or obnoxious or whatever. Posting on the main site is intimidating, even to me, and I'm pretty comfortable around the LW meme-space. The idea of "radical honesty" can often be used as a way of excusing rudeness and there's similar stuff in the community. My experience is that the further you move from the LW site (tumblr, reddit, meatspace...) the nicer people come across. I'll take a look at the RW page and see what I can say.
Also, I should probably start talking to you on google chat. I don’t know why I keep forgetting.
Also, I started skimming the RW article (not actually reading since I have company) and it seems to have been at least a bit “cleaned up” since I last visited it, so my earlier comments might have been misguided. Alternatively, when I read it in the past, I was still a lot more in a LW fanboy phase and felt the criticism a lot harder. But it does seem less snarky than I remember.
Okay, going over the page for Yudkowsky and I need to say that they made strong improvements. It used to be actual ridicule, but that seems to be mostly gone. I was going to say: “I need to update on that,” but that seemed pretty jargon-y.
This was all so much less disastrous than I thought it would be. You freaked me out man you really did :P four messages in my inbox after a post like that… it makes your heart stop you know?
I’d add a corrollary to your further-from-the-source=nicer idea that, and I’m gonna be radically honest here, the less power people have in the LW community, the less shitty their beliefs seem to be, and the less shitty their responses to sj-oriented critiques are. I was just browsing through some of Alexander’s anti-reactionary FAQ actually to explain to someone else why I dislike him and he’s actually even more of a fuckin’ neoliberal asshole than I remembered, like his ideas are so offensively bad it’s actually sickening. And then I get down to the level of like you and Sonata and while some of your behavior patterns and ways of using language are frankly kind of intimidating or come off as very imposing and demanding, you’re still people that broadly speaking I like and can have actual human-type discussions with without wanting to hurl all of humanity into the fucking sun.
Though I wouldn’t say that necessarily holds. I mean some of the folks that don’t have a lot of power still come to me with the “HOW DARE YOU” reaction to what are strictly speaking just observations about what I’m experiencing, but I think your impression of going further from the source and my impression of going down the ladder of power leading to better conversations across disciplines is a decent predictor, though obvious #notabaysian so I can’t give you numbers on that.
And yeah, the rationalwiki pretty much backs up everything it has to say now, and it’s hard to disagree with much of its criticisms, though again some of my values are literally flopped from theirs re: wanting to be a robot :P
I’m not sure if it’s exactly a problem of being “not nice” though or at least one that folks would be able to tangibly identify as “not nice” because I don’t know that it’s obvious that certain things are in fact “not nice:” when something is kind of like gaslighting (i.e. behaving as though my perceptions of the community are “misrepresentation” or that my saying “this is an unsafe space that I would never enter because you’ve welcomed neoreactionaries who literally think I am an abomination that should be butchered and proclaimed that their ideas are not as harmful as Roko’s Basilisk” constitutes an incorrect [irrational?] emotional reaction), or when you effectively say “explain your whole heuristic for determining what articles you’re reading, and I really hope you give a satisfactory answer”, or “I demand that you use more strictly scientifically accurate language in this post expressing anger and hurt,” for three important/major examples. The impression I’ve gotten is that people in the community, or major folks at least, seem to believe that the extent to which an utterance can be “not nice” is if it has a “not nice” tone, or if it is an attack on someone, but these are also ways of asserting power and dominance and intellectual superiority/authority, and as far as I can tell they’re used indiscriminately with anyone. I’m not against using them but and this is very important I also am an asshole and have no respect for trolls. Like I… well I don’t think I actually use these strategies hardly ever because I either respect you or I’m being an asshole to you, it’s very binary, but I wouldn’t use these on someone that I didn’t feel contempt for or want to upset.
Sidenote I kinda want to say maybe don’t reblog this where big folks like Ozy can see it because a number of them really do treat me consistently with contempt whether they realize it or not and it’s just absolutely not worth it to me psychologically to deal with that. Like it is too great a drain on my resources mentally and emotionally, ESPECIALLY because as I’ve noted before neoreactionaries find this shit by way of Ozy.
Anyway those are my recent issues basically with even interacting with the community and that doesn’t even get into my frustration with the neutrality or even support of gamergate and that whole fucking disaster I mean WOW but I’ve already spent way way way too long on this when I should’ve been writing articles for my blog so time to call it a night on this I think.